Get Into The Groove
Madonna Songbook is a new book acknowledging Madonna’s songwriting and producing talent coming out next month from Antiga Edizioni and shaped as a journey across 500 songs in 45 years of music history, covering all of Madonna’s songs: released, unreleased, remixed and performed live.
MadonnaTribe got in touch with the book’s author, Giulio Mazzoleni, a Milan-based international music artist manager, media-consultant and cultural-events-planner with a background of 25 years in the recording industry, who has worked with many artists and on many records, including Madonna’s MDNA and Rebel Heart.
Giulio, who is also a longtime Madonna fan, shares with the Tribe readers the story of how his book came to life, great tidbits from the process and even some teasers about unreleased songs nobody has ever heard before.
MadonnaTribe: Ciao Giulio and welcome to MadonnaTribe, the home of Madonna fans since 2003.
We always love when true fans turn their passions into works that will be available for other people to enjoy just like your new book Madonna Songbook that is coming out in just a few days. From what we know it took quite a long time to complete it, when did you have the first ideas for this tome?
Giulio Mazzoleni: First let me tell you how happy I am to be doing this interview. I was a Tribe enthusiast from the beginning and I’m so grateful that your website has all its 20+ years of archive online. It was very helpful for my research when I needed to find a quote or a date.
I have already been passionate about archiving Madonna’s music files and photos and interviews. I had the idea of making this book when I saw a great book about all the songs of Prince, an artist I’m a fan of. It was perfect. There were similar books about Bowie and Queen, so deep in their analysis of their musical talent. Nothing like that about Madonna. I complained about it my dear friend Matthew Rettenmund, writer of Encyclopedia Madonnica, and he quite simply said I should write it myself because I had the knowledge. I was also looking for a new project, something of my own at a critical point in my career, so it all seemed perfect. I had no idea how much work was ahead of me when I decided to make this the most complete guide to Madonna’s music. Over 500 songs !!!
I have already been passionate about archiving Madonna’s music files and photos and interviews. I had the idea of making this book when I saw a great book about all the songs of Prince, an artist I’m a fan of. It was perfect. There were similar books about Bowie and Queen, so deep in their analysis of their musical talent. Nothing like that about Madonna.
MT: How would you describe Madonna Songbook?
GM: It’s not the first book about Madonna’s music, but it certainly is the one that analyzes each and every song she has released and the unreleased tracks took; those that we know of and some that I have personally discovered. Every title has the writing, producing and recording credits along with musicians who played, whereever available. It goes in chronological order, divided by eras, each whit a color and so the songs are colored like that. Every chapter has introductory notes. There are also special inserts about all the tours, with set lists and band credits. Some inserts focus on the key producers Madonna has worked with, with occasional specials about other collaborators like Niki and Donna, Mike McKnight, Tracy Young and Peter Rauhofer.
There are also playlists compiled on genres or specific threads, like the Latin flavored songs across Madonna’s career. A QR codes leads the reader to Spotify and they can play those playlists too.
Anthony Coombs from New York designed the book and he has done a huge huge job with a lot of taste and style. You’ll love it. I owe a lot to him for this book. He is a fan too and put a lot of love in this project.
It’s a 712 pages long book, fully illustrated with hundreds of record covers, music ads, promo material, magazine covers, portraits and live photos. I tried to choose things that were nor seen on too many books or magazines, although the budget was right and royalties expensive. Luckily there were some generous people sharing their photos like Paul Pesco, or you guys from Tribe! There are some never before seen shots too!
MT: There are a lot of publications about Madonna released every year, but your book is probably the first one that seriously focuses on the essential element that kept her in the heart of a lot of people: Music. Are you hoping your book will help bringing attention back to that?
GM: That’s exactly my intention, the thread that connects all the 712 pages of the book. Too much chatter on Madonna’s image and private life and “scandals” have shadowed the essence of her successful career: a great talent at writing and producing songs. It is incredible how many good songs she has done, some of them are undeniably pillars of pop culture, plenty others are underestimated gems that need being more appreciated.
Through several archive quotes and new interviews I also prove how the common thought that she picks the right producer at the right time is pure bullshit. She is the producer. She is in charge. There’s no Patrick Leonard or Steve Bray Shep Pettibone or William Orbit, Mirwais or Stuart Price song that is as good as the ones they have done with Madonna. Yes of course Nile Rodgers, Babyface, Pharrell and Diplo have had huge hits, but they are more an exception to the rule and even in their cases, what Madonna brought to the music they made with her was of immense additional and irreplaceable value. Also, a big focus in the book goes on her messages of love, unity, self expression, her love and care for the LGBTQ community, her commitment to female empowerment. But most of all the book is proof of her talent at writing in a very relatable way so people identify and fall in love with her songs.
The thing I wanted to know the most about was the way Madonna comes up with her melodies and many interviewees spoke about that.
MT: To work on Madonna Songbook, as longtime fan, you enbarked on an emotional journey getting in touch with artists, musicians, composers and producers that helped making the songs that you enjoyed as a teenager. What are your fondest memories of the people you talked to? And what was the info that you wanted to uncover the most?
GM: The thing I wanted to know the most about was the way Madonna comes up with her melodies and many interviewees spoke about that. I have to say I had goosebumps when Stephen Bray played at the piano and sang songs we have never heard before. He accepted discussing ALL the songs he has ever done with Madonna. He initially agreed to 45 minutes, we spoke for almost three hours. Donna de Lory was sweet and very bright. Niki made me laugh. Also very special was getting to know a huge talent like Doug Wimbish from Where Life Begins, and Tomi Martin who played guitar on the whole Bedtime Stories album and was extremely warm and kind and a very musical person. And the fantastic Andre Betts who had given very few interviews, and the super friendly Paul Pesco, Mike McKnight, Brian Malouf who mixed Ciao Italia and Blond Ambition and recorded I’m Breathless, and my dear friend Demo Castellon, and then Rick Nowels, Daniel Abraham, Gary Burke, … I’m still in contact with some of them.
MT: And is there someone you tried hard to get in touch with with no success?
GM: I waited for months before Stephen Bray answered me, but then he was delightful and generous. A fantastic human being. With William Orbit instead, I had an exchange of about twenty email messages of yes-maybe-no-yes to certain conditions … lots of talking eventually landing to nothing, except a lot of bitterness from his side. He doesn’t want to be confined to the stereotype of having just done a successful Madonna album or two. He has so much to talk about and a lot of music and cultural dissertations he can share at length. You know, a lot of people talk about the genius he brought to Madonna’s music, but as you will read in the book, sometimes the Artist is not necessarily the difficult person in the studio. With Orbit, coproducers involved in Ray of Light and MDNA like Marius de Vries and Demo Castellon confirmed in their interviews how they and Madonna had to work hard to condense Orbit’s erratic work into a finished product. He has famously complained that MDNA was rushed, but it wasn’t. He just wanted more time to keep working and kept changing directions. That’s his creative mode.
To hear three Madonna songs no one has heard before (except Bruce Baron who first found them in the archives) was very touching.
MT: Your journey for this book was also physical, you visited, among other places, the Library of Congress to listen to unreleased demos from the Bedtime Stories sessions. What would you say it was the hardest part of your research work? and the most fun part?
GM: Well, I spoke to the Congress Library staff in charge for the music archive in Washington via email for months. They presented very strict rules and to be honest weren’t the brightest and most collaborative people there. After my inspections, I visited other sections of the Library, which also has an historic building with an astonishing reading room under a gorgeous dome, and found way better people to communicate with.
The process for listening to the tapes starts from the point that anything registered for copyright is open to public inspection. In truth you have to pay money (a lot), follow procedures, wait for them to tell you exactly when to show up and hope that they can retrieve the tapes from their off site archives. In my case, some of the tapes I filed a request for were misplaced and unavailable, yet I still had to pay for them. Then on the big day, which was very emotional, I was handed badly kept original cassettes which will soon need to be digitalized or will be unusable. I had to play them on an old stereo with not so good earphones, sitting in a room with no windows, under the watch of the Library rep sitting behind me. All electronic devices had to be left in a deposit. I was allowed to bring pens and paper only. By playing back and forth the tapes for three hours, I took al the notes that I could. The funny thing is, I returned the next morning for a second session so I learned the new songs by heart, I can still sing them. Then they examined my notebook like I was a spy and were not sure I could take it with me. They wanted to erase some words, not thinking that I had taken other notes the previous morning and nothing was checked.
This was the hardest thing of the whole project, I flew all the way from Milan ( but stopped over in Philadelphia to see the Celebration Tour with friends from NY), not knowing what I would find, but then it was goose bumping. To hear three Madonna songs no one has heard before (except Bruce Baron who first found them in the archives) was very touching. They are Something’s Coming Over, which strongly resemble Secret but has very different sounds), I Will Always Have You (which is an astonishing torch song, a very bluesy demo partially used to make Inside of Me) and my favorite, the uptempo joyful Bring It, which has an incredible melody and hit potential. I also unexpectedly found a demo of Playground.
MT: What is your first memory of a Madonna song?
GM: I can’t exactly remember if I first heard Into the Groove on the radio or saw the Dress You Up video, but both happened in the early fall of 1985. Introduced to Madonna by Sara, a sassy, rebellious and precociously sexy school mate of mine, I instantly fell in love with Madonna. With Get Into the Groove (which is how Madonna calls the song) I was astonished by the keyboard sounds and her voice. With Dress You Up’s video it was the stamina of the performance with live drums and guitars. And her charisma!!! To this day, I listen a lot to her concerts. They are less refined sound wise, but their energy is empowering.
As an avid fan, I welcome everything that leaks, even though I perfectly understand Madonna not being happy with people hearing things never intended to be heard. It’s like someone coming into your kitchen before dinner is ready and judging your roast when it’s still raw.
MT: There are plenty of Madonna demos that have leaked online over the years and fans can really appreciate the artistic progression of many of her signature songs like the early versions of Erotica aka “Your Thrill Me” that was later reprised on her live tours or discovering that some of her best Patrick Leonard songs only needed one first vocal take like Like A Prayer or Cherish. What do you think about the leaking of demos and do you have a personal favourite?
GM: As an avid fan, I welcome everything that leaks, even though I perfectly understand Madonna not being happy with people hearing things never intended to be heard. It’s like someone coming into your kitchen before dinner is ready and judging your roast when it’s still raw.
But hearing songs that were finished or semifinished and not released, like Liquid Love or Like an Angel Passing Through My Room, or the Rick Nowels demo of Power of Goodbye is really something special. My favorites have to be Each Time You Break My Heart, which is pop perfection, and the many demos of Goodbye to Innocence, with their sonic evolution. I love all versions of that song. Amazing outtake, should not have been cut from Erotica.
MT: Speaking about tours, do you think that the reworking and rivisitations of her classic on her live shows, have helped showcasing the quality of her songwriting and producer skils?
GM: Yes, absolutely. A song that stands the test of a reinvention or a different arrangement is a good song. The best ones are those you can strip off their whole production. If played with just a guitar and a voice they still sound good, then you know they are great. As for Madonna’s talent as a sound maker, her live shows are fantastic. You may not like this or that version, but overall she produces great concerts. I personally prefer some of the oldest performances because I like when she has a large band and uses fewer tracks. The Girlie Show band and arrangements were incredible. In my book I list all different versions, performances and remixes of each song.
MT: If you could ask just one question to Madonna the songwriter, what would that be?
GM: “Why don’t you like Causing a Commotion???” I’m just kidding.
I think I would ask her about her inspiration, but then again the book does provide some answers on that. She
has revealed in old interviews that I quote, or you can read the interviews I have conducted with her collaborators. They all mention how intuitive and instinctual her process is. Whether she writes from the scratch, rarely, or more often reacts to a very rough beat, she is known to grab the microphone and deliver a fantastic melody very quickly. And she rarely goes back and changes. As an Artist who is often misjudged and accused of being a product of fabrication, she is instead extremely connected to her immediate inspiration, like a painter quickly working on the canvas with fast brushstrokes. And then she does the embellishing and finessing process.
MT: You have a 25 year background in the music industry and worked on several different projects, included some Madonna ones. What would you say it is the one thing that Madonna – and Madonna only – brought to the industry?
GM: She is a revolutionary but she started from a very classic place. She modeled her career after the template of the great stars of Hollywood and American music. She was one of the last “products” of a culture of hard, hard work and research and meticulous care for detail. But she also broke the system by allowing truth in the narration, not just a fairy tale of pop. She got confessional and revealing like no one before in mainstream music, while still protecting the mystery (which no one ever does anymore, either the result of becoming boring pretty soon). She brought that model to the industry. Musically, she is the blueprint of female pop singing, it’s just impossible to find a girl popstar who doesn’t owe her a lot. And stylistically, she invented the chameleon transformation without ever ever betraying herself. Not one of her albums sounds like the others and yet all of her songs are unmistakably Madonna. So many others have tried the road of frequent stylistic transformation but sooner or later they get trapped by their own musical personas.
I’ve done it with all my heart and my brain and all of my energies. I’ve also put it a bit of my humour. I really hope the readers will find it useful and inspiring and accurate and informative, but most of all entertaining.
MT: Do you see Madonna Songbook as a one shot experience or are you willing to compile more guides like this one in the future or even update this one when new Madonna music is coming out?
GM: Making this book has been so intense. It has taken so much of my energy over the past several months that I have even given up paid work in order to finish it. I truly have had no brain space to think of anything else. It is also my first time writing a book, so this is an important moment where I can draw a new path in my life, or take a completely new direction. For sure, the concept of compiling a complete analysis of all of Madonna’s songs is impossible because there will always be new findings, new leaks, new releases by Madonna herself and new discoveries. In that sense, I would surely like to do updates of this book in the future and I’m very open to receive suggestions from the readers.
For now, this is the very best that I could achieve, and trust me, the most complete collection of information you could gather from physical and digital archives. Everything in the book is documented with footnotes addressing to the exact sources. I’ve done it with all my heart and my brain and all of my energies. I’ve also put it a bit of my humour. I really hope the readers will find it useful and inspiring and accurate and informative, but most of all entertaining.
MT: Thank you Giulio for taking the Tribe behind the scenes of Madonna Songbook!
Madonna Songbook comes out on December 2nd from Antiga Edizioni and is also available for preorder on several Amazon stores worldwide.
Courtesy of Antiga Edizioni
